[00:00:00] Dr. Alissa: Welcome to thanks. It’s the trauma. I’m Dr. Alissa, and this is a podcast with my friends, Mickey and Heidi. We’re connected by a unique and unusual experience. And we talk about it and other traumas with honesty, blues and cuss words.
Heidi: Season two, episode one, you asked, we answered, Hey guys. We’re back. I’m so excited to hang out with you tonight. Yeah, season two, we go, let’s kick it off. We have a whole bunch of questions to get through from our like massive following. I’m really excited. It’s like Colt status soon after these questions I’m sure.
Nikki: Okay. You ready for question one? Yeah. Okay. I guess we can all kind of answer this one. It sounds like many of your marriages started pre [00:01:00] digital dating. What has it been like to start this new journey of singleness in the digital world? What an awesome question. Because lowered, we have answers. Yeah. I mean, well, I did do like a harmony before I left.
Dr. Alissa: So Christian, have you spend. Well, there was very few. I also did match. I went to a match mixer match.com mixer back in the day, it was very early online dating, but it is very different now for sure. And like, I feel like you go on a lot more dates now than back then. Like it’s, there’s so many more people to choose from.
Nikki: What apps are you using? I have used Tinder hinge and Bumble. Different times, Nikki, you want to, you definitely did not online date. No, I never online dated. I [00:02:00] never, even, even when AOL chat rooms came out, I was already, you know, dating my ex. So there was no need for that. Yeah. The digital world is a very interesting place and it takes a lot of getting used to.
And I have also tried. I tried Tinder. I’ve tried Bumble. I’ve tried hinge. I’ve tried match. I’ve tried coffee meets bagel. I tried what’s that other one? Zeus. I’ve tried them all and they’re all slightly frightening. Except I stuck with hinge and Bumble, I think are the least frightening of most of them.
And I like Bumble just a little bit better. Cause the female has a little more control in how it goes. Yeah. Dating itself is difficult and interesting. I was just telling Alissa today that like dating as an adult versus dating when I was in my twenties is [00:03:00] very different and it’s hard to. To crossover and realize that no, it’s not going to be like in your teens and twenties where you’re like spending every single second together because you have nothing else to do, but be together and you don’t have kids or responsibilities.
You just got to go to a job and come home and see your person and in your forties or thirties, or, you know, when you’ve got kids, I mean, you like, you literally have to plan to go on a date on a specific day. The same time every week, you know, if it’s continuous or you’ve got to work them into a odd weekday evening or a weird weekend hour, and that is your date and that’s when you fit them in and you don’t see each other every waking hour.
So, yeah, it’s been interesting to have to figure that out and understand that that’s normal now. Yeah, right. Heidi, Heidi. Well, I’m just now dipping my little [00:04:00] toes into the online dating world. And I, so I haven’t been on any dates, but I’ve got, you know, all these different conversations going on. Now I did online date with match.com before hand.
Heidi: And so Justin was actually on match.com in Hawaii, and I was on match.com in North Carolina. And so clearly we didn’t. We didn’t match, but I did a lot of online dating. And so I feel like maybe that’s why I waited two years to do this online dating thing again. Cause I just know how exhausting it was. I would say that the biggest slate challenge or change that I’ve seen in online dating is that there’s just not a lot of information.
And like maybe three or four photos and maybe like three or four statements, little blips. Yeah. So it just feels very, very superficial. So to be [00:05:00] dating as an adult, like Nikki just said, where I really give less than two fucks what anyone cares about. Like. My outfit or my makeup. I mean, I’m like, we can go to one pizza.
Right. You know what I mean? It’s just like, there’s so much trauma and so much depth and like there’s kids and complication. And it’s like, I’m just having a really hard time, like scrolling through four pictures and like three statements and figuring out, you know. Hmm. I wonder if he would be a great fit for my family.
I mean, it just seems like. You just are going to have to massively go on like coffee dates and meet up and go have a lot of dates because there just isn’t a lot of information. Another thing that’s super stressing me out as Bumble is they have this like 24 hour clause and like [00:06:00] I’m on call for my work.
And so this last week I was at the hospital for four days in a row. And so I would like. Try to swipe whatever direction it is, like swipe right or whatever. And then it was like match. You have 24 hours to communicate. And then they were like, she’s ready to push. And I was like, shit, I don’t have Twitter.
I can’t. And then by the time I like, you know, got home from work and the baby was born and then I slept, I missed the 24 hours, like over and over and over again. And I was like, what do you do about that? So you can pay to not do that, but I didn’t know that was an option for you. Maybe Bumble could sponsor this episode and give me, you know, I need a greater window than 24.
I need a greater window than 24 hours. So anyway, that’s it. I just haven’t been on any dates yet. I think when dating in apps, you’re also, you’ve got to [00:07:00] decide what. What your goal is, is your goal trying to fit some perfect person into your family or is your goal to just date and find out what you like about dating and what you like about people and what you like about you dating people?
You know, I think you have to, if you’re just swiping because you’re looking for your soul life partner, then yeah. It’s going to be real difficult. And there it’s like one in a million swipes. And if you’re going into it as, okay, this guy’s kind of cute, kind of interesting questions. Let’s go on a date and see if we hit it off.
Then you go do that. And then you chalk it up to experience. If it doesn’t go so good or at least a real funny story for your podcast.
I think when we we’re, we’re out there going, yeah, we’re going to find a person in a dating. Oh, that’s not what my profile says, Nikki though, I, my profile says I am not looking to be in a relationship. I am looking for someone to help my body feel alive [00:08:00] again. That’s what it says. I don’t know if that’s or what, but there’s like, there’s so many gotta edit your, we gotta know one sentence.
There are thousands. There is so many, there are so many men. No, there’s too many already that very clear about it. I am looking for something.
It may not be a sole partner. Next question. Reeling him some, some bad brace. All right. Next question. What ways are you most grateful for how you took care of yourself through your trauma? That’s a good question, Heidi, you go first and which ways am I the most grateful? I would probably say the ritual that I started on day one and that still continues today.
So when [00:09:00] I was in the black hole and I was completely just, I felt like I was dead and. I started this practice that was like perspective and gratitude and it sounds slightly morbid, but I started listening to this other podcasts called terrible things for asking, and it just made me feel better to hear about people who are hurting worse than I was.
And specifically, I know the sun’s terrible, but like I would, the worst thing I would think that could happen to me in my life would be the death of a child. And so like, I probably became hyper obsessed with like Instagram accounts were like hashtag still birthday. And when I talked to people who had like lost their spouses or had really horrible traumatic stories, I was gaining [00:10:00] perspective, right.
We, I think we’ve talked in previous episodes, like I was trauma naive. And so it was, is really helpful for me to gain perspective on this. Isn’t the worst thing that could happen to you in your life, whole life. And so every night before bed, I would take that perspective of how lucky I was for the life that I do have.
And then I would just start asking or thanking God for all of the things that I do have. And I would start going in my head, like at least 10 things that were amazing and positive about my life, so that I would focus less on the trauma I was going through. And that practice continues to today. And what’s really interesting is I just read Jay Shetty’s new book.
Think like a monk. And this is like one of the practices that he talks about in his book. And I was like, how forward [00:11:00] thinking of me? I didn’t even worry about it. Yes. But it’s been kind of easy to adapt some of the principles and Jay Shetty’s book. Nice. That is what I am most grateful for Alissa. I would say that I am, I am really glad that I reached out to my community the way that I did.
I didn’t. Fall into the black hole by myself. I would keep like reaching out and letting somebody know, you know, when I was having a really hard day, whether that was calling Nicky and crying or calling you Heidi and crying, or, you know, reaching out to some of my other friends and asking for help. When I moved into my new house, like asking friends to come.
To target and help me get all the new shit for the new house and four or five friends coming and filling up four cart fulls of things for the new house and standing in [00:12:00] the sheet aisle, seeing the yellow and gray sheets and that those were my wedding colors. And then I started crying and being like, I mean, I really liked this
and you know, my friends just standing there and holding me and putting back the yellow and gray sheets and going, we’re going to get some other ones it’s going to be okay. And we’re going to keep going. And it was like, it was amazing. You know, I’m so grateful for my people, including you guys. And I’m, I’m grateful to myself that I reached out when I needed help.
And I still reach out when I need home. Nicky, how about you? Oh gosh. Let’s think. Well, of course I’m grateful for all the people who didn’t judge my situation and loved me through all of that anyways. And I am grateful in that [00:13:00] despite becoming. A hard shelled person through that and putting up every single cement wall around me to protect myself that I have slowly, somehow being able to take those down one at a time, as scary as it is taking care of myself.
By finally admitting that I need to go to therapy and handle some things. And not being ashamed of that. Cause I was for a long time and that’s just kinda the nature of my family. Was you just, you don’t talk about that and you just handle your shit. And I am proud of myself for finally going back to school because I wanted to do it for so long and I was always too scared or put.
My family or kids or ex-husband or husband at the time needs, and just didn’t want to be a [00:14:00] burden by not being completely mom available or wife available because I’d be studying and I didn’t want to sacrifice one or the other, so I didn’t ever do it. And now I can do it. And I’m standing on my own two feet and I’m doing it.
So I feel like I’m just doing all these things that I didn’t ever. Do for myself before and I don’t feel selfish. So it’s, it’s good. Yeah. Such a good example, Nikki too, like here we are in your late forties, mid forties and doing it. It’s never too late. Anybody listening, no matter what your traumas are, it’s never too late to change your life.
Just think what you’re doing. I thought it was too late and Alissa sent me some. I can’t remember what the graphic said, but it was basically saying it’s never too late. Just go do it. You know, she really helped believe in me in that and told me to just go do it. So I did it super proud. Otherwise I would have been like, just still thinking about it and maybe I’ll do it someday and [00:15:00] talking myself out of it.
So. And another news right now. Does your shirt say divorced as fuck?
That’s amazing. I wore this for okay. So one of my good friends got married. And I got divorced all in the same 30 days. So we had our bachelorette parties together. Oh, why shirt said divorced is fun. And her says I do. And we went out with all our mutual friends together in Nashville. And this is, we had a bachelorette party.
I love it. It’s amazing. I hope to embrace the word divorced someday. Um, speaking, going back to online dating. I am wait. I labeled myself as a widow. That also helps with getting laid. So that’s true. I am a widow who wants her body to feel alive. The like one [00:16:00] time that I saw on a man’s profile that it said widow or widower, I was like, Hmm.
Like, like, like there’s something about there’s no competition. What? No, it’s just like, Oh, it’s not because he likes, screwed up big time. Right. Or, you know, it’s not like his, his marriage ended because I mean, hopefully not, he didn’t even do anything unless he murdered her then. Right. But he’s also like a survivor, I think.
Yeah. Appealing is like, you’ve been through something really difficult and you’ve survived it now. I don’t feel an authentic saying that because I think we’ve talked about this before. Like I do identify as a widow. That very much hurts Kaylee’s feelings. But when you change your gender on your birth certificate and your name, legally, my husband died.
So yeah. Next question. Has anyone famous contacted you [00:17:00] about the podcast? That’s a hard, no. What are you talking about? Jeff? Goins is super famous, right? Jeff Jeffy. Yeah. Well, I guess when we were friends, he’s one of my friends. So nobody that didn’t know us. I mean, we’ve got some Instagram famous people who may or may not end up on the show.
Right. They didn’t contact us. We contacted them. Yeah. Everyone just happened to find us yet. No Kardashians have called us true. Kim and I are like besties my DMS all the time. I’m like, you know, that thing. Cause, you know, Kim Kardashians, I was actually listening to her J letter, right then his name J Letterman.
What’s the Letterman’s first name now. That’s totally wrong. David Letterman. I was like [00:18:00] Jay Leno and David Letterman became J letter J Letterman. No, his new beard is throwing me off that. Anyway, David Letterman, she was just on David Letterman’s new show or whatever. I did not know this Kim Kardashian at 26 years old, her mom was out of town and walked into the garage and found her stepdad fully dressed as a woman from head to toe because she was living with them at the time.
Why do I think I know that I just didn’t know that that was part of her story. And I was thinking girl, We could really connect here. Like I, so yeah, the ant the short answer to this is no, but I really feel like it would be wonderful to talk to one of the Kardashians. I’ll be we’re open, we’re open for celebrities to contact us is basically what we’re saying.
All right. [00:19:00] Next up on the list. Did we really not notice anything prior to this? In our relationships, did we really had not have any clues that this was, that this was a positive? Oh, can we add onto that question too? Because I think what a good question is, did we really not know? And now looking back, is there anything that makes, is there anything now that makes sense to us.
Okay. Alissa, go first. I really, really, really, really, really, really, really did not know absolutely a hundred percent never, ever, ever, ever would have guessed that my husband would come out as a transgender woman. Definitely would not. Now looking back, are there things that I could say like, okay. I mean, that was a little weird or that, that might’ve been a little bit of a hint too.
I mean, but even those things are [00:20:00] so minor that on their own, then even together, they never would have been enough of information to be able to say like, Oh, clearly I never walked in on my husband wearing my clothes or anything like that. So even if I had, I still would have never known yeah. Yeah. Do you want to give an example?
I mean, James really liked boobs and with Anne had said at one point, like I just, if I had boobs, I would just play with them all day long, but I’m like, but like stuff like that where I’m like, that’s just a dumb ass dude thing to say, you know, like thinking that all we’re going to do is want to play with our boobs all day long.
Pretty much. No, but again, in, uh, now having the information that I have, it’s like, like, Oh, you were thinking about having breasts. Like that’s interesting. Yeah. On its own just was a dumb dude thing to say. Yeah. Yeah. Nikki. Now [00:21:00] do you know? I mean now 23 years and no, never. No, no. And I mean, until the last. I don’t know how long recent, I mean, within the last 10 years, did they even really understand what transgender was?
So definitely not on my radar ever. Yeah. I think that there’s a common theme here. You, we wouldn’t have as cisgender heterosexual females. I don’t think we would have gotten married if we felt like this was a possibility now, never in my marriage, not, not a once. I will say though, same as anything. Now looking back, I mean, there were these tiny, teeny, teeny tiny things, and I’m like, now I’m like, Oh, maybe that was because she’s a transgender woman, but they were so small.
I mean, the number one thing that comes to mind is like my husband, Justin was super, [00:22:00] super hot, super hot, like looked like Bradley Cooper, like blonde hair, blue eyes. Six foot, huge Navy, tan, California. I mean like girls, are you swooning yet? I mean, he was gorgeous and he didn’t believe that about himself.
And so that was a hard part of our marriage is I would be like, woo, babe, you look and sexy today. And then like, that would make him uncomfortable. Like if I gave him positive attention about the way he looked or like, What do you look like in this like hot ass outfit or in his bathing suit at the beach, instead of like owning it, he really shied away from, but from like just how gorgeous he was and it never made sense to me.
I’m like, why aren’t you like some douchebag? That’s like, yeah, I’m super hot with a hot body. But now that makes sense. Like if somebody has bodied. But it wouldn’t be gender [00:23:00] dysphoria. Yeah. Yeah. So if someone has gender dysphoria, that now all makes sense to me, but these little tiny things, I mean, you would never in a million years be like, Oh, it’s because your gender right now.
So, no, I would just like to note that this is the first time on the podcast that you have used the name, Justin. And that you can are, you can say that now I can say that. Yes. Okay. That’s true. Kaylee is out fully out to, you can now say that your husband’s name was Justin. We’ll have to talk about that on an episode.
As we record this, we’re coming off the tail end of my husband, Justin, coming out to the world as Kaylee. So, yeah. Yay. Don’t have to edit it. Yay. Yeah. Okay. Let’s piggyback on that one, because this is a long question with [00:24:00] hindsight. Are there suggestions you might offer on how your spouse might have better handled being transgender with you?
Of course, knowing earlier or not transitioning would have been helpful, but are there ways they could have eased the burden on you? I’d welcome hearing from the wives perspective, what would have made this somewhat easier from you? And I just want to preface this, that this is coming from a, this is coming from a transgender woman who is still presenting as male.
Wow. Oh yeah. I remember getting that email. So there we go. Such a good it’s such a good, good question. And such a caring question clearly from. From this person who wants to be able to, I don’t know, probably be the best support that they can to her wife, which is really beautiful. I think for me, if I hadn’t have been told at my [00:25:00] nephew’s 16th birthday party, that might’ve been nice.
That was not a good location to discover this type of information. So, where would you suggest James had spoken to you? I think that probably, if he, at the time had been able to say, Hey, we need to talk something’s happening with me. And it’s really important. Like, can we sit down maybe in our room and talk because you know, like no distractions, this is something really important to me that probably would have made a difference.
It still would have rocked my world. But it meant in the moment I couldn’t let out all that I was feeling so having to have this traumatic, shocking situation happen and then having to shut down all the emotions in the moment was not the best. Haiti was appreciative of the fact that I don’t know [00:26:00] how about that.
I’m going to tell you a couple of things that I appreciated. I actually appreciated that Justin had told my sister first. So that I had someone to talk to immediately afterward. Now, if you asked my sister how that went, that was very difficult for my sister. Cause I think it was like a week in advance and my sister had to like hold onto it.
So that was probably really, really difficult. But I had someone immediately to talk to that had had time to process. So she had had that whole week to like think process, articulate how she was going to support me. So. I appreciated that I had someone armed and ready to love on me and embrace me. I loved that.
She gave me a letter so that I could go back and read it over and over and over again. And process we were in private. It was in my bedroom. What was difficult is like we had little kids, you know, two and three years old. I just wish they. Like maybe get a [00:27:00] babysitter, you know? So like I like when I have to go downstairs and like mom hard now and make dinner, I mean, so that was kind of weird.
What I would say really, really, really hurt me. And I’m in therapy for it is that she had identified about six weeks earlier that she was a transgender woman. And during that time period, Had sex, we had sex. And I feel like that was like to this day, two years later, that’s still really, really difficult for me that I thought I was having sex with my husband, Justin, but she had already accepted that she was a trans woman, Kaylee.
And so I really wished that wouldn’t have happened. That’s fair. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. What about you? You know, I can wish a lot of [00:28:00] things, but it happened the way it was just going to happen. So I, I don’t know that it would, anything would ever make it easier. There’s no softening the blow of this because it’s just what it is.
There’s no easing into, I’m going to transition into a female. How do you ease somebody into that? And I, and I think mine did somewhat come gradual. There were some conversations about. Gender dysphoria. And even before that, some other conversations, but all within the same timeframe and then eventually ending with I’m going to transition, or I am a transgender woman and I mean, how much slower can it go?
Then the two years that it took for us to finally get divorced, there was no softening. Any of it. It’s just trauma trauma happens. And for me it was trauma and trauma is not slow. Most of the time it’s impact fast. And that’s what it [00:29:00] was. So I don’t know that there was anything different just for me. It was for me and my personality.
Let’s just get it over with, but then we dragged it out two more years. So, you know, yeah. I was going to say it, it can go longer. We’re in here. We just entered into the third year. Right. Are you still married?
Divorces. Fuck. I’m sorry. Every time you make your way back. All I see is divorces. Fuck. And I’m just like, Okay. Okay. Let’s do a funny question. Someone wants to know if I have a drinking problem.
Listen, I talk a big game. Not like I sit here every day and do shots at tequila. When I get home from work. Cause I still got to function and go there for, I was gonna say there were definitely times when I was like, [00:30:00] I just want to go home and drink, but they, you know, it’s called binge drinking for a reason.
Just like y’all binged our episodes. I’m binge drink tequila, and then I’m okay. Now I’m in school. So I guess stay sober most of the time. Alissa. And I can attest that Nikki is not an alcoholic. She just drinks with us and alone for fun.
Alone is not usually fun.
Nikki does not have a drinking problem. She just likes to pretend she does. I love that question though. It’s funny.
Well, now that you know, almost everything about us, let’s hang out on social on insight. You can find us on. Thanks. It’s the trauma podcast, everywhere else, including our website just thinks it’s the trauma. And if [00:31:00] you have any questions or want to email us, we would love to get back to you. Thanks. It’s the trauma firstname.lastname@example.org.
Alissa. What is working with your ex daily? How was that? We’ve done that. I mean, for more than a year now, more than a year since Jamie came out and overall it has been fine. It has been uneventful. Bull shit. I’m sorry until, Oh, okay. I thought you were just going to, like, I thought you were going to end there, Alissa.
I’m sorry. I was like,
sorry. I thought you were ending and moving on. And I was like, yeah, it has been generally I don’t even fall. It has been fine until. Jamie’s girlfriend started [00:32:00] working in our office together with us, and that was aligned for me. And so I am now moving offices, not out of anger or spite or whatever. It’s like, okay.
That was clearly whatever that was the right step for them, you know, and this is the right step for me. So this is news to me. We were texting a little bit about that. And essentially Nikki and I are like, get the fuck out of there by time to get a new office. I don’t know. And then some time passed. So, so you decided to get a new, a new office.
I signed a lease yesterday. And my moving day is in two weeks. Whoa. I’m so proud of you. Thank you. It’s a big, it is a big change and there’s, you know, at first it was like, Oh, there’s no feelings about this. Like, let’s just do this. Okay. This is clearly the right time. And then I [00:33:00] don’t know. It was just like, Oh, this is like another, it’s just another ending.
It’s just, and you just, I just keep finding, I don’t know about you guys. I’m not going to speak for all of us, but I just keep finding more. Endings more new experiences, more losses in this where it’s like, you know, I’m a, I’m a year and some months after, you know, the original bomb and still there’s moments that are like, Oh, this, this part’s new and this hurts.
It turns out. So, yeah. Yeah. It’s weird to go from counting like anniversaries and. You know, memories. And when we did this to, to counting closed doors, yeah. It’s familiar. It’s a great way to put it. And it is very strange. Now, have we told the audience that Jamie has a girl? We have not. That is a new development since we ended first.
Yeah. You [00:34:00] can’t share their story, but we could just leave it at simmering at that. So no Delana was the first of us to move on. Dylan was remarried and now Jamie is dating and I have no idea what’s going on in Kaley’s personal life because I don’t ask. Yeah. Don’t want to know. Yeah. I want to know interesting hug, big hugs right there.
I think it’s going to be really fun for you to have your own office and your own space and a new beginning and just freedom and separation and a whole new way. Thank you. I think it will be, it will be good. Yeah. You ask, how does Jamie feel about you moving out? I don’t really know. Okay. Yeah. I didn’t know if she had emoted.
No emoting. Okay. All right, Nikki. What you got for us? Has your experience with ex-husbands made you leery of trying [00:35:00] marriage again? Well, fuck. Yeah.
will probably never change now. I wish we put it on now for me. I know, I wish we could have screenshotted all three of our faces when that question.
Wow. Yeah. I have no interest, at least at this point. I mean, who knows? There’s a lot of life left to live and I have no interest at this point in ever being legally married, ever again, what she said and the same, I intend on being super rich. And being financially from this podcast on this podcast, famous and rich sponsors.
I’m just kidding. No, but really never. I just, no, I mean, what a financial nightmare should show. Yeah. Like I will go so [00:36:00] far as to say, I can’t imagine sharing a residence or a bed with another man ever again, like. We can hang out. We can go on dates. We can have sex, we can travel. But like, that’s your house?
This is my house. Like, those are your kids. These are my kids. Like, I don’t want to ever be a step-mom. I don’t there’s no like stepdad in it, up in this place now I’m only two years out. So like maybe in seven years, ask me again, but right now, Oh, you ever think though, like you have boys. Mm, I have a boy and the man figure has, is no longer a man in our children’s lives.
The dad, right? I mean, I’m like, mine is still called dad, but like I do think about, I would like for my child to have a, a man [00:37:00] role in his life as a boy. Do you ever think about that? I, you know, comes to mind, but I also believe in sports and I believe in coaches and I believe in uncles and I believe in friends.
And, you know, my boys have a lot grandparent grandfathers, so my boys have a lot of like, really strong, like my brothers are like up in it and like my sister’s husband, like up in it. And so I just feel like they have like a lot of really positive male influences. They have like right now, max, his art teacher, he adores.
I mean, I just feel like there’s a lot of really there’s men everywhere to mentor them. We don’t have that right now. Jameson does not have that at this time, but I hope that at some point that that’s true. Yeah. I have, I’m one of five children, so there’s yeah. So yeah, just different. I mean, I just feel like that [00:38:00] figure can come in lots of different packages.
Yeah. That’s definitely true. Yeah. And Nikki, with your boys. I mean, Dalana really stayed in a fatherly figure most of their lives, correct. Most of their lives, but then, you know, the teen years, I mean, it’s still present, but the male figure, like you’re speaking of wasn’t there. So I rely on a very good family friend who does take them under their wing.
One is he’s taught my oldest how to drive. And my sister’s has been taught him how to shave. And they live in Oregon. We were just there visiting one summer and I’m like, could he teach Noah how to shave? And my sister asked and he was like, Oh yeah. And he’s a father of two sons as well. So totally easy piece of cake for him, taught them some, you know, like random yard things like [00:39:00] Alamo and, you know, ride a mower and do guy things like that.
And. I’m not the most girly girl. So there’s that, like you say, they’re going to come in different shapes and sizes. And I think even growing up with both parents, heterosexual or whatnot, you find role models that are not your parents. That means something, whether it’s a teacher or a coach, or, you know, just someone that you worked with that is older and you looked up to, so I imagine along the way, they’ll find those things and I don’t.
I did worry about it for a long time though, that wasn’t like, I’m going to get married so they can have a father that’s never been for me, but, you know, I started to worry that they were going to miss out on some things, but now it’s like, you know what they’re doing? They’re doing fine. And they’re going to find their role model, whether they have a male dad figure or not.
So I have a follow question, Nikki, [00:40:00] you’re dating someone pretty seriously. Have you had the conversation with said person that you’re not interested in them being a stepfather. We both want that. We don’t. Neither one of us want to get married again. So that was a plus. I’m going to need some I’ll go ahead, Alissa.
Is it, is it that you guys have no interest in like kind of what Heidi is talking about? Like no interest in joining homes or things like, like staying at the level that it’s at until the kids are grown. I don’t know. Or is that a conversation you’ve had yet? Yeah, we haven’t had that conversation yet. We just know that neither one of us really want to get married again.
Cohabitating, not sure yet. I mean, it’s still very early. I D you know, I don’t, I don’t know. So you would be open though to cohabitating. I don’t know. Okay. These are great. See, everybody lists, if we were, maybe if we, neither of us had any, you know, all our [00:41:00] kids were grown. Maybe that would be easier. Like, I can’t imagine trying to blend all these teenagers together who are all boys would be a nightmare or opposite, you know, like mine are always around.
So when you get a break from that, so. No, I don’t, I don’t know. I mean, you don’t have to work. You have independent lives and you’re adults, so you kind of have to have an independent life. And maybe someday when we retire to a fancy Island, I don’t know. We’ll see. I mean, you know, it’s early. We could, he could take me next week.
So you never know
these are good questions though. You guys. Yeah. For the sake of time, why don’t we answer some of them for the audience? One-offs but if it’s like really, really good, then we’ll all answer, but, okay. Alissa, has this podcast impacted your practice [00:42:00] at all or does it scare you that it might, it has not that impacted my practice at all.
It does concern me. I, you know, I do feel like I have to be. Cautious and aware that absolutely as I speak and as some people are listening, my, some of my clients are listening potential future clients. And so I want to be, I want to be open and honest because I think I, well, I really value authenticity. I don’t think that a therapist has to be a blank slate to the way that we used to think about therapists.
So I think it’s okay that I have a story and I have a personality, but you know, I also want to be cautious and, you know, not sharing things that feel too private that would cross a line. So I’m always aware that there’s some line. Somewhere, right. I need to figure out where that is. Yeah. Heidi, this can be a good one for you.
This audience member is curious about how the kids [00:43:00] refer to their dads now and how that transitions pronouns are important. Are they still dad? Is that awkward or confusing? Oh, I’m so excited to take this one on. Ooh, for those that listen to, you know, binge listened. I had a really difficult time with this.
I was like, I’m the mom, like you’re the dad, these kids were made with like your sperm. Like, I was angry because Kaylee kept bringing up to me that she, you know, had a desire to not be called dad, father, anything like that. So we had changed pronouns when we changed names. So when we introduced that, you know, daddy had a new name, Kaylee that the proper pronouns where she and her.
I think all of us, or honestly, really struggling with like dad, she, her, like, it was just very difficult. I was angry. I had talked to my therapist. [00:44:00] What I was told was what my children call their parent is none of my business, which is ouch, but it’s true, you know, and I had to work through that and I had to process it.
And it really came to late for me one night when we were at dinner, it was actually one of the first times that Kaley was dressing as a woman in public. And in order to like ease that for her, I had offered to take her out to dinner with the boys so that we could all be a support system for her presenting female out in the world, you know, with makeup and hair and outfit and jewelry and all of it.
So we picked her up. She looked gorgeous. Very difficult for me to say that still. Cause it’s just, it’s a little weirdish, you know, for me, but we go to dinner and it was very, very uncomfortable for me [00:45:00] to have our children saying, dad, daddy, they’re so loud because they’re five and six and they’re running around to this woman with long.
Blonde hair and breasts. And, and I was like, Oh, okay. She might have a point here. You know, like I was like the first time that I was like, it was drawing attention to us that I didn’t want, you know, whole nother thing we’ll talk about is like I’m experiencing dysphoria now in a whole new way. Cause I feel like I’m being perceived now in public as like.
Someone who’s not cisgender heterosexual when I’m with my trans gender spouse and our children ex spouse and children. So anyways, so we go on vacation together because we’re still very much a, a, a tight close family unit and on vacation. We’re driving around. And Kaylee says to the boys, you know, something [00:46:00] about like it really, or maybe she says it to me, it really hurts my feelings when they say dad, because it brings back my dysphoria and it makes me feel terrible about myself.
So I’m now in the car balling because this is the person that I love. And they’re telling me that this term dad hurts them. And I can’t understand that in any way, because it’s a term of endearment. And I’m just getting angry. And I, you know, I, like, I just don’t know what to do here. And she asked me get out of the car.
Cause she was going to the doctor, the urgent care for like an eye infection at the beach. So she got it’s out and like, you know, our kids over here, we were idiots because they’re listening, you know? And then like, max is like, what are you talking about? And I’m like, well, I was a dad. Really is getting her feelings hurt because she feels like a girl and she is a girl and her name’s Kaylee.
And so when we say dad, like [00:47:00] society, that tends to be a masculine or a male term, like when we think of dads, we think of men or we think of boys, like when you think of dads, do you think of that? And they were like, yeah. And I just found myself saying, is there something else you would like to call.
Kaylee instead of dad that would make her feel happy in the first thing they said was, well, yeah, mom and I was like, uh, that’s taken no, correct. I was like, actually nothing with the word, the letter M also. And I don’t know. So my oldest max, he just was, you know, so cute little six year old. And he says, well, whatever her name’s Kaley, what about KK?
And I was like, I think that’s really cute. Do you XY what you want to call your parent? And he’s like, yeah. And then my other one Jagger is like, yeah. And before you know, it they’re like KK. When are we going to pick up [00:48:00] KK? And I’m like, she’s going to be really excited. So KKR, we pick KK back up and we let KK know that they have chosen her name for her, her parental name.
So her parental name is KK immediately. Never again, have we had a problem, like with pronouns, like KK was instantly associated with a female. Was she her? And I’m not embarrassed when we’re in public and my children say KK, I’m not. Yeah. So anyway, so that’s a very long answer to that, but I came full circle.
Like I was really against it. And then now I’m super for it. Seeing the positive. Impact it’s made in my children using a name that is feminine, feminine parenting term for their female parent. Okay, Nikki, this next question is for you from an [00:49:00] audience member. Nikki, how hard is it for you to edit yourself?
While we’re recording while we’re recording for me to edit myself on a daily, hourly basis when talking. So imagine that times 10 on a podcast with a microphone recording, just bear. These two have to delete a lot of things. One that I say wrong. Two and a half to say several times to get it right. And three stabbing being inventive
a little bit. Right?
So yes, editing is difficult. I would say Alissa has to be edited the least. I have to be edited for talking way [00:50:00] too much. Like 90% of my words get cut out. And then Nikki has to get edited for political correctness.
This is very light all day long, too. Not just here. There’s no mute button in real life. So it just comes out. I love our audience. These are amazing questions. And it’s really fun to be recording this with like the premise that like the people that are supporting us are getting to know us at a deeper level in which what they want to know about us.
I really liked this episode too. Yeah. Would we let a film crew follow us? Hell yeah. Would shit’s funny. My initial reaction is like, I would need to lose 40 pounds. And then my answer would be, yes. I don’t know if I would now. I don’t know you have a practice, so you’d have to be [00:51:00] careful. Well, you have fun making $0, Alissa, Nicki, and I would cash that in.
We fall down six times and say things all wrong, but we went hiking today and it was wet and you didn’t even fall one time slip and almost break my crotch or anything.
I’m so proud of you. I’m getting better guys. And you guys went to two hikes today. She won’t do hikes. I did not. I went on a hike who you did well, this wasn’t an audience question, but now I’m going to make it one. Alissa, tell us about your hiking date today. I have been dating someone a little bit and yeah, this date went very well.
[00:52:00] I am enjoying connecting with him. I have a question for you because I currently know of two people that you have been dating. Do you see this person mostly on Thursdays or would this be a newer relationship? This is the person I mostly see on Thursday. Wow. Okay. Excellent. Expanding beyond Thursdays. I know, right?
Wow. To hiking. What day is it? Saturday. Okay. Yeah. And we went on a date last night, too. Well, maybe I should have said Alissa is in a serious relationship. Also. You guys. Yeah, it’s me. I need to be like polling, the audience for dates sheets. I’m behind the times over here, Bumble. It is got to go guys. [00:53:00] Bye.
Did you meet on Bumble, Alissa Tinder, Tinder, or Tinder? You met them and you’re currently dating on what site? Bumble, Bumble, and Tinder. Okay. One more question. This is an audience one. Given the circumstances of COVID we have all had time to self-reflect and keep shit real, keeping shit real on a podcast can be stressful.
What is ground? What is a grounding technique each of you use to stay authentic to your true presence? Self? I mean, I dunno. I hike, I hike. They get grounded, listen to music. Hey, go to therapy. I have anxiety all the time, all the time. I talked to Alissa and then I texted, Oh, both of you and everyone reels my shit in.
Sometimes I cry sometimes I don’t, but I’m not [00:54:00] just drinking tequila. I’m fine.
Heidi. Hi. I don’t know how to answer that one. I would say like, COVID has given me a chance to slow down and I’m still just trying to figure out who I, I am now. So in this stillness, I have some of these like coping mechanisms, but I think the question was something about like being authentic. And right now I just feel like I’m in a discovery, you know, every day.
I’m just trying to figure out who I am and who I want to be. Alissa. I think the ways that I stay authentic now are still the same as before COVID and before pre podcast, I don’t know that it’s much different in that regard, but I would say, you know, trying to be present and, you know, again, kind of coming back to community, [00:55:00] my people being honest and authentic in those relationships and yeah, just taking care of myself.
Hiking, um, used to be Krav Maga when we could touch people, but Oh, you’re touching people. Haven’t been able Thursday, Friday and Saturday. You can, again, you can have the, I haven’t gotten to do chromogen in a very long time. So we found other ways, thankfully.
You’re terrible. I know, you know, what else? You know, what else I just thought of, of course, Glennon, Doyle, his book, you guys know backwards and forwards, but you know, when she says feel all of it, like, or feel everything. So I wrote it on a post-it and I put that next to my bed because I’m just going to feel all the fields, all the things bad.
Good. All of it. So that’s grounding cause you kind of have to stay present in those [00:56:00] emotional moments. Yeah. Something that Glennon says that I relate to so much is we can do hard things, but we can’t do easy things that is like, Oh yes, I can make it through all this shit. Get a house, work through trauma.
I can’t seem to pull my trash bag out of her without every fucking time, every fucking time. So I can do hard things, but easy things don’t count on me for our last question. And audience member wants to know, how did we tell people why we got divorced, like on our first dates or what was our experience and telling people.
Why we divorced when they asked? Cause I always ask. Yeah, I’m super curious about that. But before we dig into that question, [00:57:00] Nikki and Alissa, could you just maybe give me a rough estimate of how many people you’ve kind of had conversations with on these dating apps over the years? Where this, where this question’s even come up.
I was just wondering, like, have you had this conversation one time or have you had it 10 times where you had to tell like a almost stranger. Probably 30 times. Oh geez. You guys, aren’t hot. Why did I underestimate you guys down to five to 10? You’re super sexy. Super hot. Of course. You’ve had this conversation 30 or more times.
Okay. So really not 30. Yeah. I love this question. So when, when do you disclose? I have gone different ways, like with some guys. Pretty early on. We’re having just some pretty honest messaging back and forth before we even go on a date. And so there’ve been several guys that I’ve [00:58:00] told via messaging that my ex is a transgender woman.
One in particular was somewhat comical because this guy was a fairly conservative, evangelical Christian. And I was like, are you sure that you want to go on a date with me? And he was like, yeah. I was like, listen, I need you to know, like I’m a feminist black lives matter. I’m liberal. I’m affirming my ex as a transgender woman.
Like I’m needing, you’re a recovering Christian. I’m an aye. Aye. Yes. Ex evangelical. Yeah, it’s just like, are you sure? And he was like, yeah. And then he ghosted me. So yeah. I’m sure. No. Um, but yeah. And then with other guys, it is like, there’s like slight satisfaction that I get out of seeing somebody face change.
It’s a six [00:59:00] satisfaction. Maybe just watching these guys. It’s almost like, it’s almost like research, like, okay, what kind of. What kind of reaction are you going to, has anyone ever thought you’re kidding? No. Oh, okay. It’s too specific to be telling a joke. Yeah. My ex was a transgender woman. Isn’t that hilarious?
Very different. And it does sound like a joke. So Alissa, you say it before you get to the date? Usually sometimes. And then sometimes I say it on the first day. Okay, but never, never made it past a first date without calling somebody Barry on open and honest of you. Okay. It would be really rude of me if I didn’t bring it up until after we had sex.
[01:00:00] I have a connection. It’s a connection is just for sex. And then if I can tell them anything, you know what I mean? Like, except maybe your, your STI status, uh, would be appropriate, but, you know, um, other than that, I, I don’t think that you owe anybody any information. Typically on the STI status, it’s like clean today.
Do you have any, do you have any STDs or STI? I’m assuming that they’re speaking about that day in particular and if we’re clear, we’re clear
Heidi, what about you? When I first started dating, I felt like I had to tell everyone up front. So I wasn’t a liar. But when I first started dating, I think I was thinking I was dating for the long haul. I was trying to find, you know, the person. So, and [01:01:00] then after I got ghosted a few times when they said that that didn’t bother them, I realized it bothered them.
So, um, now I answer when I’m asked, has if this, if you. That’s the thing, conversations are hard. And when you meet someone, even just messaging at first and matching energy, and if they’re not asking you a lot of questions, that’s how the conversation is going to go. I’m not going to answer your question.
I’m not going to give you information you didn’t ask for. So if you don’t ask, I’m not going to tell you, but that’s just me. That was like, that sounds like very much like Nikki, pretty much me for the most part. The ones that I have gone on date wit dates with who already know have been very nice, doesn’t bother them.
And they always say, it always comes up. Well, it’s not your fault. You know, it’s not anything you did. You know, they’re very kind about that for the most part, [01:02:00] with people who are a little on the more liberal side of things, it’s okay. I’m not sure for some of them more Southern. Nashville natives if we’re in Southern natives, if that’s so, okay.
So weeding out process. You mean it was probably a bad decision that the first person I matched with on my dating app was a Baptist pastor and I told him, and then I never heard from him again. That’s yeah. Okay. Now I’m learning. Okay. Wow. So follow up to the followup on this. So both of you guys are. In relationship I’m in, I’m in a situation.
So relationship ship. Yes. Two particular individuals. When did you tell them and how did they respond? It’s pace. That’s funny. It’s just been awhile for state [01:03:00] because the conversation was flowing so well and he was very, obviously. Not going to be bothered by it. So I just told him, what are you bothered by it
and her phone? I’m just texting you. She’s asking you, when did they tell you? Probably knows the date. He probably does. Um, I’m going to assume on the first date or before in messaging. Okay. But I, it would, it would have been one or the other, but I don’t remember. And obviously he reacted to that just fine.
I think compassion and kindness. I think that the most, like the amazing thing about this is like, we started this podcast for a lot of reasons, like to talk about trauma, but to help other individuals that may find themselves. In our situation, or like we’re finding from many of the emails that are coming [01:04:00] in is that there have been generations of men and women who have come before us who have been hiding in the shadows with this story.
And this podcast is really the first time that they’ve had the opportunity to have a voice in a way for what they’ve been going through. And so I think what’s important to hear is that. If this happens to you or has happened, happened to, to you that most of the time, you will not be blamed for it. You will not be shamed for it, and you will not be rejected for it.
So date on I’m going to go now because I have 24 hours that are running out. I’m down to like four and a half. To respond to some bumbles she’s motivated. Yes. But thank you to our amazing audience for these incredible [01:05:00] questions. All right. Thanks for listening to the, you asked, we answered you just learned a whole lot about us and we hope you’ll stick around for episode two, where we talk with Liz from the rude ass Enneagram.
Thanks. It’s the trauma podcast is not a substitute for therapy or mental health advice. If you or someone you love is in crisis, please call one 802 seven three. Talk +1 800-273-8255. You can also text the word home to seven four one seven four one to reach a trained crisis counselor.
You’re a peach.